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Chat transcript: DMN's Jeffrey Weiss on Pew religion report
02:54 PM CDT on Tuesday, June 24, 2008
DMN reporter Jeffrey Weiss answered questions about the findings from a study released by the Pew Forum for Religion and Public Life on Tuesday, June 24. Read the story here.
Welcome. Jeffrey Weiss is now answering your questions on the Pew Study.
From E-mail: If many paths are valid, then what would make some paths invalid? And if all paths are valid, then if my religion infringes on rights a particular society has codified as laws, what if that society later decides to change such laws (as those against animal sacrifice or "hate" speech or even, say, rape)? Would that mean that what was once considered wrong really was wrong before and now is right, or was it perhaps really right before, but was wrongly considered wrong? - Kenny Kurtz
Jeffrey Weiss: Whew. That's a tangled knot of a question...1:-{)>
Jeffrey Weiss: The survey doesn't actually determine what is or is not right -- just what people think is right today (or more specifically, what they thougth was right last summer). Over the history of humanity, many things were once considered acceptable and are no longer. Consider slavery.
From E-mail: I'm aghast, once again, at a poll like this, though I probably shouldn't be. I would dare chalk up the majority of those polled as agnostic; or not really knowing what they believe definitively. In the Bible, in John 14:6, Jesus says he is the way, the truth and the life. How any "Southern Baptist" or Protestant at all could believe there's no hell, or there's some other way to the afterlife is beyond me! The whole idea of religion to me has about completely disintegrated, especially with regard to various doctrines and people's actual faith of each. Attendance across the board has waned considerably over the past decades in many churches and I think it shows with people's nebulous beliefs and really ridiculous stances on different subjects, no matter their respective faiths. What is your take on this? Do you subscribe to a certain faith? And if so, no matter what it is, what would be your explanation for such broad beliefs by so many? Thanks, Barry
Jeffrey Weiss: There have been many surveys that show that people didn't know that much about the specifics of theology, even of the religion they say they profess. And there are other studies that show people disagree with some of the tenets of their own religion. I'm thinking particularly of Catholics who are well-studied in the US. Identity is more than theology. Someone who grows up in a religious tradition has emotional ties that may have little to do with the specific teachings by the central authorities.
davidgbarton: Does the study address the question of universal salvation and what % of people believe in it?
Jeffrey Weiss: Hm. No. The closest question is the one that asks about many religions as a valid path to eternal life.
From E-mail: The Pew study asks the question about whether one’s religion is the only way to eternal life. But how was “religion” defined? It appears from the way the question was asked that an individual Christian denomination could be considered a separate religion, which is of course nonsense. Most Christians, I believe, would agree that Christian denominations are by and large merely different flavors of the same religion. But most would also agree that Christianity is the true way to salvation (with the possible exception of Judaism due to Jews’ chosen-ness). Jim Swayze
Jeffrey Weiss: Good question, and one I posed to the Pew folks. Religion is defined by thge person asked the question. So some folks may consider members of other denominations as members of other "religions." Or they may be thinking more the way a theologian does, of faiths with very different groundings. We can't know from the survey. But the Pew researchers say they think there's some of each going on.
mark: One of the comments on the survey on the DMN blog pointed out that maybe the questions were too vague (example, did they specify other religions outside the Christian faith when asking about eternal life). Does the survey report go into the design of the survey much?
Jeffrey Weiss: The full survey on the Pew Forum site has enormous detail about methodology, including the exact wording of all 60 questions. Warning: It's a PDF that's more than 260 pages long...
Fellow Traveler: Hi. Just a point of clarification. It is a base principle of Judaism, set forth clearly in the Talmud, that righteous non-Jews DO win God's favor. Therefore, it is not a contradiction, but an adherence to principles, for a faithful Jew to say that other religions can lead to eternal life.
davidgbarton: Is there any sense that we are moving toward a kinder, gentler form of Christianity where we aren't so inclined to relegate person who do not share our world views and/or religious beliefs to eternal damnation? Personally, I really tired of this dogma and the sooner we get rid of it, the better.
Jeffrey Weiss: I've seen that experssion elsewhere. It's called Universalism (not to be confulsed with Unitarian Universalism, which is a subset). In an ineterview several years ago with a Chircago reporter, Barack Obama seemed to indicate he inclined in that direction. Go to our Religion blog and search fo Obama on the keywords and you should find that posting.
ceyoung: how does one become righteous fellow traveler?
ceyoung: but david, what if it true? would it be better then?
Jeffrey Weiss: Oh and Fellow Traveler, you are exactly right. Traditional Judaism is much less focused on specifics of salvation than is Christianity. "Righteous gentiles" are promised a full portioon in the "world to come."
ceyoung: how would all of you guys view humanity overall? basically good or not?
Jeffrey Weiss: Oooh...I'm staying out of that one...1:-{)>
Fellow Traveler: Yeah, it's hard to believe sometimes, but I have to go with basically good.
Fellow Traveler: Adherence to what are called the seven laws of Noah, which are somewhat similar to, but not the same as, the ten commandments. I'm not an expert but I'll try to state them. Prohibitions against idolatry, adultery, murder, and theft. Belief in God. Then two that do not show up in the ten commandments. One is the prohibiton against cruelty to animals. The last Noahide law is communal, that society as a whole set up fair laws and justly enforce them.
Jeffrey Weiss: Yup. The "Noahide laws" are generally considered the minimum standards for non-Jews in traditional Judaism. They were the laws that applied to non-Jews who lived amongst the Israelites.
Jimmy: Unless we know exactly how questions are asked and whether one Christian denomination is considered a different religion from the others the results are mostly invalid. Also consider that the average church member doesn't know enough about his own denominations beliefs to be a spokesperson for that denomination. Jimmy
ceyoung: the only reason i ask is that it will definitely affect your view of God's holiness. can someone get to Heaven after breaking the laws of God?
Jeffrey Weiss: Jimmy, "valid" is a matter of interpretation. What the Pew people need to find out is exactly what people thought they meant. And they plan to do that. In either case, it's an indication that the denominational divisions that slice through American Christianity are not seen as salvaltional issues by most people. And if the understanding of "religion" is more like the dictionary, it means most people are less excusivist int heir beleifs than thier tradition teaches
Jeffrey Weiss: ceyoung -- "Getting to heaven" is a religion -specific concept. As is the will of God.
hbirving: jeff - good morning from boston. today's globe said that massachusetts was among the least religious states as noted in the Pew Study. should we assume that Texas, being in the Bible Belt, was among the most religious? I will say, since moving to the northeast last summer, many of our neighbors don't seem too religious...except of course, the Greek Orthodox (that may be due to their yummy food festivals!) harriet
Jeffrey Weiss: We had some Texas-specifc stats in today's paper and online. We're more religious than some states, not so much as others. Texas is a biiiig state, so it's hard to say we're all *anything."
jackie: I agree with Jimmy's point. A person may view different Christian religions can be a path to heaven, but not all religions, including Hindu, Buddist, etc. The entire study can be misleading without knowing more about the background.
ceyoung: ok, obtain eternal life, as in the title of the article
Fellow Traveler: ceyoung - I think all religions recognize the validity of repentence.
Jeffrey Weiss: Eternal life is religion-specific, too. Hindus have a different idea of how that works out than to Muslims than do Jews than to Christians.
Jeffrey Weiss: As for whether the study is "misleading," you need to take it as it is. I was interested in the answers from evangelicals, where one might imagien their understanding of terms might be more specific than other groups. And even in that category -- even among denominations such as the SBC where the teachings are *very* specicif -- majorities indicated non-exculisve understandings of salvation.
Fellow Traveler: The ideal Jewish view, as I understand it (which is certainly limited) is that one should do good from love of God and avoid evil from awe of God and not worry so much about the rewards and punishments.
Jeffrey Weiss: There's a line in some Jewish liturgy that says the Torah is an easy doctrine, not so high as to be unattainable. And there are other Jewish prayers that say God is always waiting for repentance. A very different nuance from much of Christianity.
Jeffrey Weiss: I did a story a few years back about the illusion of "Abrahamic faiths." While they all use a lot of the same terms and even some of the same books, they are at heart very different religions. More cousins than siblings.
Jeffrey Weiss: Anybody else got a question?
jackie: Jeffery, I agree, quite different, however Christians of course do not disagree with the Jewish religion . I was surprised about the SBC, which is why I wonder if they meant other Judeo-Christian religions, or included other religions (Buddist, Hindu, etc) when they responded to the "BELIEVE THAT MANY RELIGIONS CAN LEAD TO ETERNAL LIFE" statement.
From E-mail: This poll kind of hits a nerve with me. I recently married a churchgoer, I've been tentatively starting to attend church again after many years away. I find that it just affects me like nails on a chalkboard whenever anyone at church voices the idea that one has to be Christian in order to be "saved." I really can't stand such a thought. No fair-minded God would refuse to "save" any good and holy person over the question of whether that person has different beliefs. My husband agrees with me on this but I don't think his nerves are so raw as mine over this issue. I just really have trouble with this. I think it's overtly discriminatory when people express the idea that a person who belongs to a different faith can't be "saved." I find it so embarrassing to be present when someone says such a thing and I feel morally compelled to vocally disagree every single time. How can I go to church if all I want to do is disagree? Yet, it's really important to my new spouse that we try. - Kate
Jeffrey Weiss: Jackie, there are planty of CHristians who "disagree with the Jewish religion" insofar as they have active ministries to bring them into Christianity where, from a Jewish perspective, they would no longer be Jewish.
Jeffrey Weiss: Kate -- that's the Universalist idea again. There's an Oklahoma pastor named Carlton Pearson who all but lost his following because he moved to that position.
Jeffrey Weiss: As for how you can go to a church that teaches what you disagree with, well, the Pew study may indicate you'd have lots of company...1:-{)>
Fellow Traveler: Maimonides (know to Jews as RAMBAM) said that only Christians and Muslims for eligible for a place in "the world to come". However, I read about a month ago about a conference in Israel in which Orthodox Jewish leaders and Hindu agreed on a list of common base beliefs.
Jeffrey Weiss: The RAMBAM is one of the top Jewish sages, no quesiton. But there is no Jewish "pope," no universally accepted authority for interpretations. So Jewish leaders are free to disagree. The Talmud, in fact, is a centuries-old list of disagreements.
Jimmy: Thanks Jackie I think Jeffrey is a victum of the traps that I mentoned earlier. I am a Southern Baptist and we have always taught that a person that accepts Jesus as Savior is a Christian despite his affiliation in any denomination but this excludes Moslem, Hindu, Budast and all non Christian religions even Jews. We don't consider Christianity to be a religion as it is the only faith that is about what God did for us and not what man does to justify himself.
Jeffrey Weiss: Jimmy -- you are entitled to your opinion. Others, however, disagree and think *they* know better what God's will is. Or even that there is no such thing. Faith takes us all in different directions.
Jeffrey Weiss: Jimmy, as a Southern Baptist, if you were asked about "other religions," how would you interpret the question? Would it be asking you about Lutherans and the like or Buddhists and the like?
jackie: Good point, I remember hearing about Jews for Jesus! Kate. I find it interesting that you find yourself all knowing as to define what Christians should believe; actually I am beside myself that you believe to know what GOD should or should not do. Maybe you should start your own religion or better yet, become a Universalist. I happen to be Christian but have a lot respect for people and their religions - I have more respect for a Hindu that does have a strong believe system in something than I have for people that criticize people for having a believe system at all. If you don't believe in something you actually believe in nothing. (At least that is what I think - I forgive me if that might sound offensive is just intended to be direct.)
Fellow Traveler: Faith is a given, but when the rabbis in the Talmud argue over what God wants most, they ask whether it is doing or studying. They don't even mention faith.
Jeffrey Weiss: I've seen Jackie's POV elsewhere. That Orthodox rabbis feel more kinship to conservative evangleical pastors than to some of the other branches of their own faith. Thats something in the Pew study I didn’t get into much -- that people of the same apparent level of religiosity often had more in common across denomination lines than they did with others within their own denomination.
Jeffrey Weiss: Well, it's about time to shut this down. Thanks to all who joined in or watched. If you want to keep the conversation going, I invite you to visit the Religion blog where I have a couple of posts on this topic where you can weigh in.
jackie: Jeffery, thank you for bringing religion to front page news! It helps for people to talk about it and better understand each other!
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